CBS News Producer Prompts Kerry to Refine Attack on Bush on Jobs --2/20/2004-- Media Research Center

1. CBS News Producer Prompts Kerry to Refine Attack on Bush on Jobs
CBS News helped John Kerry refine his attack on President George Bush -- and then the CBS Evening News featured a soundbite of that re-hashed and now succinct blast. In Thursday’s Boston Globe, Patrick Healy reported that in Ohio on Wednesday Kerry had delivered a meandering three-minute attack on the Bush economic team for backing off an earlier jobs creation forecast number, “yet it left TV reporters without a soundbite until one CBS News producer asked the Massachusetts Senator to try again.” He did, coming up with: “They don't know what they're talking about in their own economic policy. Today it's one thing, tomorrow it's the next. It’s the biggest say one thing, do another administration in the history of the country."

2. ABC Re-Airs Story on Mrs. Bush’s “Harsh” Words About McAuliffe
Wednesday’s World News Tonight found a way to keep President Bush’s National Guard service story in the news when it featured a Terry Moran story with an interview with First Lady Laura Bush. He warned that Mrs. Bush had “harsh words” for Terry McAuliffe. When she asserted that “I don’t think it’s fair to really lie about allegations about someone like the Democratic National Chairman did,” Moran challenged the description: “He 'lied’?” But ABC then lost sound for the story. So on Thursday night, World News Tonight ran the story in its entirety, leading to another night of ABC viewers hearing about the National Guard issue and Moran condemning as “harsh” the First Lady’s words.

3. CBS’s Hartman Scolds Media for Obsession Over Vietnam Service
Steve Hartman, the “Everybody Has a Story” guy at CBS News who is too young to have served in the military during Vietnam, offered a commentary at the end of Wednesday’s 60 Minutes II in which he argued that what George W. Bush or John Kerry did during the Vietnam era is no longer relevant and admitted that when he registered for the draft he did so as “a conscientious objector. Of course, I didn't really object to war in general -- just a bullet in my butt in particular.” He scolded the media: “For the men who actually served, like President Bush and Senator Kerry,” Hartman contended, “I don't think” what they did in the Vietnam years “should be on the list” of reasons they may make a bad President.

4. NBC Forces Out Bob Arnot Who Delivered Upbeat Stories from Iraq
A week before NBC News President Neal Shapiro hired Rick Kaplan, a Friend of Bill, to take over MSNBC, the New York Observer ran a story by its “NYTV” columnist, Joe Hagan, who recounted how at the end of last year Shapiro did not renew the contract for Dr. Bob Arnot, who contributed positive stories from Iraq. Hagan relayed how “Arnot called NBC News’ coverage of Iraq biased.” Hagan reported how “Dr. Arnot said he knew for 'a fact’ that Mr. Shapiro’s problem with his reporting was that 'it was just very positive.’" Indeed, “NBC sources said that when the statue of Saddam Hussein was toppled in Baghdad, Nightly News anchor Tom Brokaw declined to put Dr. Arnot on the air, even though he was the sole NBC reporter on the scene.”

5. “Top Ten Signs Bush is Considering Dumping Cheney”
Letterman’s “Top Ten Signs Bush is Considering Dumping Cheney.”

CBS News Producer Prompts Kerry to Refine
Attack on Bush on Jobs

CBS News helped John Kerry refine his attack on President George Bush -- and then the CBS Evening News featured a soundbite of that re-hashed and now succinct blast. In Thursday’s Boston Globe, Patrick Healy reported that in Ohio on Wednesday Kerry had delivered a meandering three-minute attack on the Bush economic team for backing off an earlier jobs creation forecast number, “yet it left TV reporters without a soundbite until one CBS News producer asked the Massachusetts Senator to try again.”

He did, coming up with: “They don't know what they're talking about in their own economic policy. Today it's one thing, tomorrow it's the next. It’s the biggest say one thing, do another administration in the history of the country."

That night, CBS correspondent John Roberts featured that soundbite in his CBS Evening News story and then ever so helpfully expanded on Kerry’s point: “Critics say the contradiction presents more problems about credibility and leadership for President Bush.”

     James Taranto, in his “Best of the Web” column for OpinionJournal.com on Thursday highlighted the Globe story, which he suggested hinted at a bit of liberal bias at CBS News. In his February 19 story, “As Kerry surges, feistiness seen slipping,” Patrick Healy reported from Dayton:
     “John F. Kerry, wrangling with rival John Edwards over jobs and trade in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, arrived in this city with 26 percent unemployment yesterday and scored some political points off the Bush administration -- though not quite in slam-dunk fashion.
     "'Just a couple of days ago, the administration promised America several million jobs over the course of the next months, and I immediately said that those predictions would fall short based on the promises they made with respect to the tax cut, which was supposed to give a million jobs -- it lost a million -- and the next tax cut was supposed to produce a million jobs, and it lost a million,’ Kerry told reporters, going on to cite more statistics and insist that his plan is better than Bush's.
     “Kerry's remarks lasted three minutes, yet it left TV reporters without a soundbite until one CBS News producer asked the Massachusetts senator to try again.
     “'They don't know what they're talking about in their own economic policy,’ Kerry said of the Bush team. 'Today it's one thing, tomorrow it's the next.’"

     For the Globe story in full: www.boston.com

     The February 18 CBS Evening News put the new and improved Kerry soundbite into a story by Roberts about how “just ten days after President Bush's economic team predicted that the economy would recoup all the job losses under his watch by the end of this year, the President today refused to back up that claim.”
     Bush: “I'm mindful there are still people looking for work and we've got to continue work, building on the progress we've made so far.”
     Roberts: “The forecast was for 2.6 million new jobs, but even the most rosy private-sector predictions are for only two-thirds that. Touting the President's economic record in the hard-hit Northwest, Treasury Secretary John Snow walked away from the White House numbers, saying, 'I think we're going to create a lot of jobs. How many? I don't know, but we're going to keep working on it.' It's another embarrassing turnaround for an administration which last week had to reign in its chief economic adviser who declared, 'Sending jobs overseas was good for America.'”
     Kerry: “They don't know what they're talking about in their own economic policy. Today it's one thing, tomorrow it's the next. It’s the biggest say one thing, do another administration in the history of the country."
     Roberts: “Critics say the contradiction presents more problems about credibility and leadership for President Bush, just as he hopes to raise such questions about his presumed opponent. In an effort to regain his footing, Mr. Bush tried to change the subject today, lashing out against the parade of gay marriages in San Francisco, aiming to contrast his unwavering position against what Bush campaign officials portray as John Kerry's waffling on the issue....”

ABC Re-Airs Story on Mrs. Bush’s “Harsh”
Words About McAuliffe

Today’s lesson: Trust Peter Jennings’ word over mine when it comes to what will air on World News Tonight.

Thursday’s CyberAlert recounted how Wednesday’s World News Tonight found a way to keep President Bush’s National Guard service story in the news when it featured a Terry Moran story with an interview with First Lady Laura Bush. He warned that Mrs. Bush had “harsh words” for Terry McAuliffe. When she asserted that “I don’t think it’s fair to really lie about allegations about someone like the Democratic National Chairman did,” Moran challenged the description: “He 'lied’?” She came back: “Well he made it up I guess I should say.”

“At that point,” the February 19 CyberAlert recounted, “the story switched to video of Laura Bush talking to school kids, but without any audio, as viewers heard the voice of Peter Jennings command: 'Come to me.’ Jennings noted the audio problems and promised to run the story again tomorrow, but I’d doubt that will occur since it looked like all viewers really missed was a couple of concluding sentences from Moran.”

In fact, what I thought was Moran’s concluding stand-up was not, as the story still had 54 seconds to go, and true to his promise, Jennings ran the story in its entirety at the end of Thursday’s World News Tonight. Of course, this meant another night of ABC viewers hearing about the National Guard issue and Moran condemning as “harsh” the First Lady’s words.

     For the story first aired on the February 18 World News Tonight, Moran traveled to California with Laura Bush to produce a piece on how she’ll be used in the campaign to re-elect her husband. As the two sat in a room somewhere, Moran touted how, no doubt after some goading by Moran, “on this trip, for the first time, Mrs. Bush spoke out on the controversy surrounding the President’s service in the National Guard decades ago, before she met him.”
     Moran to Laura Bush: “But you knew, you say you know that he was pulling Guard duty in Alabama?”
     Laura Bush: “Absolutely.”
     Moran: “How?”
     Laura Bush: “Of course. Well because he told me he was. And, you know, the records have been shown. He wouldn’t have gotten an honorable discharge if he hadn’t had pulled his duty.”
     Moran: “And she has harsh words for Democratic Party Chairman Terry McAuliffe who has leveled the charge that her husband was AWOL at that time.”
     Laura Bush: “I don’t think it’s fair to really lie about allegations about someone like the Democratic National Chairman did.”
     Moran: “He 'lied’?”
     Laura Bush, laughing: “Well he made it up I guess I should say.”

That’s where ABC lost sound for the piece and went to Jennings at the anchor desk.

     The February 19 World News Tonight re-aired everything up to that point and then picked up with what was missed the night before:
     Moran, over video of Laura Bush in school a library: “For the most part, however, the First Lady tries to stay above the fray and raise money. Lots of money. [over vide of Moran in front of hotel] Here at the Four Seasons Hotel in Newport Beach California, at her second fundraiser on this trip, the First Lady will take in $170,000 for the campaign. She is an extraordinarily successful fundraiser, collecting more than $5 million so far. Some campaign officials call her, 'the secret weapon.’ Laura Bush’s strength, says one Democratic pollster who has asked voters about her, are her steadiness and warmth.”
     Celinda Lake, Democratic pollster: “They like her because she seems down to Earth. They also like her, particularly women, because they think she counters a little bit his macho, shoot from the hip style.”
     Moran, over video of Laura Bush posing for a photo with school kids, concluded his story: “In a close election, the First Lady’s broad appeal, and political toughness, are crucial assets for her husband.”

CBS’s Hartman Scolds Media for Obsession
Over Vietnam Service

Steve Hartman, the “Everybody Has a Story” guy at CBS News who is too young to have served in the military during Vietnam, offered a commentary at the end of Wednesday’s 60 Minutes II in which he argued that what George W. Bush or John Kerry did during the Vietnam era is no longer relevant and admitted that when he registered for the draft he did so as “a conscientious objector. Of course, I didn't really object to war in general -- just a bullet in my butt in particular.”

“For the men who actually served, like President Bush and Senator Kerry,” Hartman contended, “I don't think” what they did in the Vietnam years “should be on the list” of reasons they may make a bad President.

Hartman also rebuked the media for always finding the negative: "As reporters, it's our job to look into people's faults, and we do it to a fault. A candidate could ascend into heaven before our very eyes, and tomorrow we'd be on the air accusing him of flying without a license. After John Edwards' strong showing in Wisconsin last night, I wouldn't be surprised if someone started accusing him of avoiding Vietnam all together -- by intentionally being born too late.”

     The MRC’s Brian Boyd caught Hartman’s commentary at the end of the February 18 60 Minutes II:
     “I'd like to waste the next two minutes of your life on a trivial subject with no relevance whatsoever -- in hopes that this can be the final word on the matter. I'm talking about the Vietnam War as it pertains to this year's presidential election. Specifically the questions of 'Where were you in 72?' and 'What's your fuzzy little head doing back there behind Jane Fonda?'
     "For me, the last straw came over the weekend when -- in response to accusations the President had skipped out on the Alabama Air National Guard -- the White House released reams of President Bush's old military files. The only thing of any interest were his dental records, which seem prove that in January of 73, at least, his mouth was in Alabama.
     "Of course, the President and his rival have brought some of this on themselves. If you don't want people looking into your military records, then you should probably just wear a suit to the costume party. If you don't want people talking about your anti-war protest, then you might want to tone down the hero bit.
     "As reporters, it's our job to look into people's faults, and we do it to a fault. A candidate could ascend into heaven before our very eyes, and tomorrow we'd be on the air accusing him of flying without a license. After John Edwards' strong showing in Wisconsin last night, I wouldn't be surprised if someone started accusing him of avoiding Vietnam all together - by intentionally being born too late.
     "Finally, one last thought. When I was 18, I had to register for the draft -- even though there was no war, was no draft, you still had no choice. But I made one anyway. After filling out the registration card at the post office, I signed my name as a conscientious objector. Of course, I didn't really object to war in general -- just a bullet in my butt in particular.
     "Looking back, I would not do that again, and it certainly doesn't define who I am today. On the list of reasons I would be a bad President, that decision ranks at about number 73. And for the men who actually served, like President Bush and Senator Kerry, I don't think it should be on the list at all."

No wonder we haven’t seen Hartman on the CBS Evening News recently.

Steve Hartman’s picture and bio: www.cbsnews.com

NBC Forces Out Bob Arnot Who Delivered
Upbeat Stories from Iraq

A week before NBC News President Neal Shapiro hired Rick Kaplan, a Friend of Bill, to take over MSNBC, the New York Observer ran a story by its “NYTV” columnist, Joe Hagan, who recounted how at the end of last year Shapiro did not renew the contract for Dr. Bob Arnot, who contributed positive stories from Iraq. Hagan relayed how “Arnot called NBC News’ coverage of Iraq biased” and he, Hagan summarized, “wondered why the network wasn’t reporting stories of progress in Iraq, a frequently heard complaint of the Bush administration.” Hagan quoted from a letter Arnot sent to Shapiro: “'As you know, I have regularly pitched most of these stories contained in the note to Nightly, Today and directly to you,’ he wrote. 'Every single story has been rejected.’"

Hagan reported how “Dr. Arnot said he knew for 'a fact’ that Mr. Shapiro’s problem with his reporting was that 'it was just very positive.’" Indeed, “NBC sources said that when the statue of Saddam Hussein was toppled in Baghdad, Nightly News anchor Tom Brokaw declined to put Dr. Arnot on the air, even though he was the sole NBC reporter on the scene.”

While NBC News may have been resistant to Arnot’s reporting, last November, MSNBC’s Hardball featured his upbeat stories for a week, in a series titled, “Iraq: The Real Story.” The two CyberAlert items on his efforts:

-- November 12 CyberAlert: Bob Arnot, who rarely appears on NBC News programs, popped up Monday night on MSNBC’s Hardball with Chris Matthews to contradict the image of chaos in Iraq hyped by the media. Launching Hardball’s week-long series, “Iraq: The Real Story,” Arnot recounted the challenges faced by troops in hostile areas, but countered the negative image of the Iraqi situation he knows Americans get from TV news. Arnot argued: “The fact is in 85 percent of the country, it’s calm, it’s stable, it’s moving forward.” Touring a shopping area, Arnot relayed how, “from what you see on TV from Baghdad you’d think that, with the mortars and rockets, that this was a city under siege.” In fact, he contended, “nothing could be further from the truth in many neighborhoods.”

     For the CyberAlert item, which features a still shot of Arnot: www.mediaresearch.org

     -- November 14 CyberAlert: U.S. TV network news about Iraq as distorted as al-Jazeera? Checking in from Iraq on Wednesday’s Hardball, Bob Arnot highlighted a Muslim ayatollah in Iraq who “is furious at the press coverage. He says not only American television, but Arabic satellite TV, such as Al-Jazeera and the Abu Dhabi station, have mis-portrayed the great success that is Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein.” The night before, Arnot contrasted the negative TV news image of widespread destruction and disgust for Americans with the reality he sees of Iraqis who “love the Americans and their President for cleaning up their streets, providing clean water, opening the schools.” See: www.mediaresearch.org

     Now, an excerpt from Hagan’s piece in the February 16 New York Observer, a weekly newspaper, “Dr. Bob Arnot’s Parting Shot.”

Bob Arnot, the medical doctor turned foreign correspondent for MSNBC and NBC News -- the onetime chief medical correspondent "Dr. Bob" on NBC News, who has been filing prickly, Geraldo-like dispatches from Iraq -- has been conspicuously absent from TV lately. Dr. Arnot’s contract was up at NBC in December 2003 and, according to the network, won’t be renewed in the foreseeable future.

Dr. Arnot did not leave willingly.

Although personal, his departure has also exposed the divides over TV coverage of the war in Iraq.

In a 1,300-word e-mail to NBC News president Neal Shapiro, written in December 2003 and obtained by NYTV, Dr. Arnot called NBC News’ coverage of Iraq biased. He argued that keeping him in Iraq and on NBC could go far in rectifying that. Dr. Arnot told Mr. Shapiro that NBC had alienated the Coalition Provisional Authority in Baghdad since it shot and then aired footage of correspondent Jim Miklaszewski at the scene of the November bombing of the Al Rashid Hotel, in which a C.P.A. staffer was shown injured. That incident, he wrote, "earned the undying enmity of the C.P.A."

"We’ve been at a significant disadvantage given NBC’s reputation in Iraq," Dr. Arnot wrote Mr. Shapiro. He argued that due to his excellent relationships with military and C.P.A. personnel, NBC News could repair its standing with government authorities by airing more of his material.

"I’m uniquely positioned to report the story," he wrote. "NBC Nightly News routinely takes the stories that I shoot and uses the footage, even to lead the broadcast," but "refuses to allow the story to be told by the reporter on the scene."

In other words, he suggested, NBC News did not like putting him on the air.

Dr. Arnot included excerpts from an e-mail from Jim Keelor, president of Liberty Broadcasting, which owns eight NBC stations throughout the South. Mr. Keelor had written NBC, stating that "the networks are pretty much ignoring" the good-news stories in Iraq. "The definition of news would incorporate some of these stories," he wrote. "Hence the Fox News surge."

Reached for comment, Mr. Keelor said that he was "not lambasting anyone" and that NBC News "indicated they were sensitive to the issues." But he added, "Of course it’s political. Journalism and news is what unusual [events] happened that day. And if the schools are operating, they can say that’s usual. My response to that is, ‘The hell it is.’ My concern there is that almost everything that has occurred in a Iraq since the war started is unexpected."

That pretty much summed up Dr. Arnot’s attitude as well. In his letter to Mr. Shapiro, he wondered why the network wasn’t reporting stories of progress in Iraq, a frequently heard complaint of the Bush administration. "As you know, I have regularly pitched most of these stories contained in the note to Nightly, Today and directly to you," he wrote. "Every single story has been rejected."

Reached at home in Vermont, Dr. Arnot said Mr. Shapiro was no longer interested in his kind of coverage. "On the MSNBC side, they’ve been very generous and they want me back," he said. "But from the NBC vantage point, Neal neglected to put any money into the pot, and that’s the reason I’m not back in Baghdad."

Did Mr. Shapiro respond to his e-mail? "That particular e-mail, I didn’t get any response," he said. "There was an earlier e-mail, and the response said, 'We’re just too strapped. We don’t have the money to be able to afford the editorial oversight.’"

Dr. Arnot said he knew for "a fact" that Mr. Shapiro’s problem with his reporting was that "it was just very positive."

Mr. Shapiro responded by e-mail, saying that NBC News had re-evaluated its coverage for 2004, determined that "we were in the post-war period in Iraq" and shifted its resources to political coverage....

A number of high-ranking military officials contacted by NYTV complimented Dr. Arnot’s superior reporting skills, especially in light of what they perceived as the chronically negative war reporting on TV in the United States....

Maj. Clark Taylor e-mailed NYTV from Baghdad to state that Dr. Arnot "highlighted what is really happening over here....He generally reported positive things because, generally, that is what is happening. Of course there are occasional bad things...and he reported those as well. The fact was, he reported what he saw—which generally was positive."

"As you probably know, he is quite a renaissance man (doctor, athlete, TV journalist, etc.)," wrote Maj. Gen. David H. Petraeus in an e-mail, "and the 'Screaming Eagles’ (the nickname for the 101st’s soldiers) really took to him. Our soldiers and leaders were particularly pleased that he demonstrated so much interest in the nation-building endeavors that were carried out by our troopers and our many superb Iraqi partners."...

In his e-mail to Mr. Shapiro, Dr. Arnot argued that his relationships with the authorities earned him access to stories that other reporters couldn’t get.

"I was the only reporter to be shown the actual list of terrorists found in Saddam’s briefcase," he wrote. "The military even let me witness the capture of one of the leaders of the insurgency … a major general in the Baathist military wing."

And Mr. Shapiro had a number of complimentary things to say about Dr. Arnot, calling him an "intrepid live reporter."

But in the halls of NBC News, a number of insiders at the network said, Dr. Arnot was seen as a cheerleader for the military and the C.P.A. Some questioned his accuracy as a reporter.

In 1998, Mr. Arnot’s best-selling book, The Breast Cancer Prevention Diet, came under intense scrutiny from medical watchdogs for its broad claims—so much so that both the American Cancer Society and Memorial–Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York City complained of inaccuracies and misstatements in Dr. Arnot’s book. "In the end, there were no technical faults with the book," said Dr. Arnot.

In 2001, Dr. Arnot—then chief medical correspondent for NBC’s Today show and for Dateline NBC—gave up his stethoscope and donned a flak jacket for some foreign adventures....

[Arnot in e-mail to Shapiro] "What happens if NBC is wrong[?]" he wrote. "What happens if this is a historical mission that does succeed...that transforms the Middle East...that brings peace and security to America. What if NBC’s role was like that of much of the media in general...allowing the terrorists to fight their war on the American television screen, where their stories of death and destruction dominate rather than that of American heroes?"...

NBC sources said that when the statue of Saddam Hussein was toppled in Baghdad, Nightly News anchor Tom Brokaw declined to put Dr. Arnot on the air, even though he was the sole NBC reporter on the scene. Instead, Mr. Brokaw aired a British reporter from a news agency called ITN. "They used ITN, their British affiliate...rather than someone on the NBC payroll," said the NBC staffer. "They don’t use his reporting because they don’t trust his reporting."...

Dr. Arnot was not the first NBC employee to complain about coverage in Iraq. In fact, Noah Oppenheim, the producer of the Hardball series, a self-identified neoconservative and onetime producer for Scarborough Country, wrote an article for The Weekly Standard upon his return from his three weeks in Iraq, asserting that reporters rarely got out of the so-called Green Zone in Baghdad, and that they cribbed wire reports. Mr. Oppenheim left MSNBC when Nightly News executive producer Steve Capus and anchor Tom Brokaw complained openly that the article was unseemly coming from a NBC-affiliated news producer.

While Dr. Arnot’s fitness as a reporter may be under scrutiny, his criticism of NBC News does go to the heart of an ongoing issue in this election season, the media perception of the war in Iraq. On Sunday, Feb. 8, when Tim Russert asked President Bush on NBC’s Meet the Press if the administration had miscalculated "how we would be treated and received in Iraq," Mr. Bush’s responded that he disagreed with the premise of the question: "Well, I think we are welcomed in Iraq. I’m not exactly sure, given the tone of your questions, we’re not."

The exchange showed the distance between the White House and the media on how the war had been presented to Americans. They were two men watching different TV shows -- Mr. Bush had his sources, and Mr. Russert saw what he saw.

And so did Dr. Arnot.

END of Excerpt

The New York Observer has not yet placed this February 16 story in its archive, but when it does it should be listed here: observer.com

The December 10 CyberAlert ran an excerpt from the Weekly Standard article by MSNBC producer Noah Oppenheim, who we’ve now learned from Hagan, was forced out of NBC News because of it. CyberAlert had related: A month ago MSNBC producer Noah Oppenheim traveled to Iraq to “find out if things had really gone as horribly wrong as the evening newscasts and major print dailies reported.” In the latest Weekly Standard, he recounted how found that “the mounting body count is heartbreaking, but the failure of American journalism is tragic.” Oppenheim discovered that “America has brought to Iraq the notorious Red State-Blue State divide. Most journalists are Blue State people in outlook, and most of those administering the occupation are Red.” Since “most journalists did not support this war to begin with,” Oppenheim observed, they “feel vindicated whenever the effort stumbles.” www.mediaresearch.org

“Top Ten Signs Bush is Considering Dumping
Cheney”

From the February 19 Late Show with David Letterman, the “Top Ten Signs Bush is Considering Dumping Cheney.” Late Show home page: www.cbs.com

10. Cheney's desk has been replaced by President's new air hockey table.

9. There's a listing on Monster Dot Com for a Vice-Presidential position in a "Large North American Government."

8. Cheney's so depressed he's only eating 12 KFC drumsticks a day.

7. There is a "For Rent" sign on the front lawn of the undisclosed location.

6. When Cheney says, "We're gonna win in November," Bush snarls, "What's this 'We' crap?"

5. White House interns are no longer required to know CPR.

4. The CIA says they have reliable information Cheney won't be dumped.

3. Bush asked Trump if he could come to Washington and fire Cheney.

2. Yesterday a tearful Cheney sang "I Will Survive" on the White House lawn.

1. Bush called Daddy looking for Quayle's number.

Number 5 elicited groans from the audience.

# Walter Cronkite is scheduled to appear tonight, Friday night, on NBC’s Late Night with Conan O’Brien.

-- Brent Baker

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